The Minnesota Senate Ethics Subcommittee has hearings next week to look into allegations of conflicts of interest against Senate President Bobby Joe Champion, DFL-Minneapolis.
Champion stepped down from his role as chair of that same committee after Senate Republicans filed an ethics complaint against him, which Champion called a smear.
When not at the Legislature, Champion is a private practice attorney. He recently sponsored a bill to steer $1 million to a private legal client and is the chairman of the Senate committee where that bill landed, prompting the GOP complaint.
Former State DFL House Majority Leader Ryan Winkler, also a lawyer, was quoted in a Minnesota Star Tribune story reporting that Champion apparently has long blurred the lines between his private and pro bono practices as an attorney with his public responsibilities as a lawmaker. Winkler joined MPR News host Cathy Wurzer on Morning Edition on Thursday.
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The following transcript has been lightly edited for clarity. Listen to the full conversation by clicking the above player button.
Do the alleged blurred lines surprise you?
I think that over time, Minnesota has become a little complacent about its ethical standards at the Legislature. I generally think that the people there are doing a good job. They’re doing what they think is right, and they’re not influenced by corruption, bribes or other terrible things, but I think that has led to people getting a little bit sloppy and taking some things for granted. And I think that’s what needs to be corrected.
There have long been ethics concerns at the Capitol. What’s going on inside?
I think it’s mostly people justifying themselves. They do good work at the Legislature. They believe in the nonprofit organizations they’re supporting. Legislators are part-time, so they may be active in various causes outside of the Capitol. And I believe people just think, “Well, I’m doing good work here. I’m doing good work there. It doesn’t really matter if there is an appearance or an actual conflict of interest.”
The governor and Senate majority leader say conflicts of interest rules should soon undergo a review. Do you agree?
I do. And when there is an appearance of corruption or possible corruption, it undermines not only confidence in the Legislature, but also confidence in the work that these nonprofit organizations are doing.
So I think both for public opinion about the people working in the State Capitol, and for the organizations they support, it’s important to have cleaner lines and clearer rules that sit better with standards around the country — and I think it needs to be updated.
I would also say that there is a significant fraud problem in Minnesota involving nonprofits. And so, especially now, when we have seen hundreds of millions of dollars be stolen through the use of nonprofits — and in some cases for-profits receiving state and federal funds — it’s extra important to have the highest standards of ethics in state government, both with rules and with the conduct of elected officials.
In 2007, the Legislative Auditor said legislatively authorized grants were dangerous. The current auditor agrees.
I think there is always going to be a place for them. Legislators are in closer touch with their communities and may have a better understanding of what is needed in a particular community. I think that’s the case with Sen. Champion.
The alternative of sending money to state agencies and going through a grant-making process has some advantages. But one disadvantage is that a lot of newer organizations may not have the sophistication to seek out those grants, or those state agencies have a lot of power, and the Legislature, as a co-equal branch of government, should have some say in where those funds go.
But if the Legislature is going to be doing it, we need to have better oversight. The oversight should be coming from state agencies and from Legislative committees reviewing grants. So there’s a place for it, but it has to be done much better than is being done right now in Minnesota.
Are we at a tipping point for change?
I think we have actually gone back and forth. In 2007, when I was in the Legislature, we had an Office of Grants Management. We supported that agency with additional funds, and we created stronger accountability laws, which — for example — criminalized misappropriating state funds.
We have a lot of good laws on the books for dealing with some of the most severe cases of fraud in state government. The question is, are they being investigated? Are they being tracked? Are they being enforced? And that’s where I think we need to have a bigger emphasis on actually using the laws we have more effectively.
If you were Sen. Champion in his position, what would you have done?
I would disclose my ties to an organization, and then, if the conflict is significant enough, I would ask somebody else to carry the legislation. It’s not good for Sen. Champion and it’s not good for the organizations he’s trying to help if there is a shadow of conflict of interest hanging over the support the Legislature is providing.
